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Old 07-06-2008, 01:07 AM   #1
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Fun with timing belts - kinda long...

Sorry for the length... and there is a question at the end.

First, I really should intro myself. I'm really not new to the board, I just like to lurk and learn. I've been the proud owner of "beefy" for almost a year now and it has been a wild ride. Beefy, is a 1987 sammi with a 1.3 8v and 160,000 miles. First I had to get it to meet Utah emissions, which lead to a carb rebuild. That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. I like puzzles and that was a fun one .

Then in a nasty winter storm a few months back I ended up blowing the already slipping clutch. That had the zuk sitting for a while til I found the funds for a new clutch.

Spring kinda came and I got excited to take of the fiberglass top. After scraping of a bucket full of silicon the PO sealed it down with, the top came off. It was fun, but the weather didn't like me much so it was short lived.

Warm weather and the top off found my wife and I crusin' around doing some shopping. While returning home we approached some railroad tracks. I asked her if she wanted to try jumping the tracks... she said yes . When I landed beefy wasn't happy and it quit on me. Never could get it started up. Bummer... Had to call the kids to bring the tow bar, grab a diet coke and rescue me. I have great kids... They love getting ammo on Dad for later days.

A few days later I started wrenching to see if I could figure out what happened. It really sounded like some junk had plugged the fuel filter but the filter was clean and the pump was pumping fine. So I thought, maybe timing. I started mucking with the dizzy and things started working better. So I moved things a bit more, tried moving the dizzy a tooth back and forward... It kinda got better, but I've never really been happy with how the timing of this machine worked. I do have a light, the FSM, Haynes manual and a helper. But I just couldn't get the beast running good when set to 10*. Something just seemed wrong.

So I decided to go the big route... check the timing belt. Good thing I did. As I dug deeper into the engine an pulled things out I found some very interesting things. The gear on the crank shaft was missing a bolt. After getting it off I found the tooth over this missing bolt was GONE. Blown in half. There was no metal around the area and rust inside the hole so it had been this way for a while. Obviously I don't want to put that back on. What to do... oh,yeah, the 16v stuff. Yup, I once bought a 16v engine to do a swap. When I dug into that block it was trashed. Threw a rod and made some nasty holes in it. but I have all the guts still. I thought I could part it out on e-bay some day, but I'm to lazy.

So now to the question. When comparing the timing sprockets for the cam and crank they seem "close". The number of gears are the same. The diameter seems to be right on. The teeth are different so the current belt really doesn't fit right. The crank pulley is wider, however, I think this is OK. I also snagged the power steering from the sidekick I got the engine off of, so I want to put that on also. The crank gear is larger so I can get the pulley on for the PS system. Will this work? Can I use the timing gears off a 1.6 16v on a 1.3 8v? What about the tensioning pulley? I will need to get a new belt, but I don't know if the normal belt will work. The 16v is taller so I don't think a 16v belt would work. While researching I found reference to a "round" tooth belt for the 1994 sammi vs. a "flat" tooth belt. Maybe that is what I need...

OK wizards of the sammy, set me straight. BTW, I'm not opposed to just getting the right components. It was just to late at night on a weekend and the stores are all closed. I thought I'd ask the question and maybe save a few bucks if I don't need to spend it.

Thanks...

WWP
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Old 07-06-2008, 01:50 AM   #2
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dont have an answer but welcome to the board anyhow...
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:23 AM   #3
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Thanks!!! After posting last night I thought you all might want to see some pics of what I'm dealing with.

This is beefy:


Here's the broken crank sprocket:


This is the front end with the 16v sprockets installed:


A comparison of the width of the 8v vs. 16v crank sprocket:


The two tensioning pulleys, 16v on the right:


The 8v Cam sprocket with the belt in place. Just hand tension:


The 16v Cam sprocket with belt in place. Hand tensione, but notice the gaps around the teeth:


Later,
WWP
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Old 07-06-2008, 10:46 AM   #4
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you need to go get timing belt with round teeth not flat. if i remember the last time i replaced mine there were 2 different belts. also you'll have fun timing that with different size pulleys
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Old 07-06-2008, 05:16 PM   #5
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I do not think the 1.6 parts will work on your 1.3. I believe the cyl. block is taller on the 1.6's so the belt will be to long and the tooth pattern on the 1.6 pulleys do not match the pattern on the 1.3's belt.
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Old 07-07-2008, 09:37 PM   #6
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ok if im not mistaken the 1.6 16V sprokets will not work
BUT

if you can find a 1.6 8V sprokets they will work perfectly you will just have to get the 8V's round tooth belt
note the year you get the sprockets off of
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:09 PM   #7
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Everyone has been very helpful. Thanks so much. I'm taking one of two paths with this. 1) I will be getting a replacement sprocket for the crank and a new belt. This is the safe route and probably the best. However, I'm really curious, so I might try 2) finding a 89 round tooth belt and try this setup. As I was thinking about this I decided to do some measurements. The sprockets actually line up at the edges exactly. The differences are is the depth of the tooth channels. I mounted each set and measured top to bottom distances and they are exactly on. So if I found the right belt, and I know they exist, I'm pretty sure it would work. Caveat... I'm a computer nerd, not a mechanic so I reserve the right to really screw this up .

Right now I can't find a parts clerk who has the resources to identify the part number for the round belt. The path of least resistance is the new sprocket, so despite my desire to "experiment", I'll probably end up down that path.

Thanks, all!!!

WWP
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Old 07-07-2008, 11:34 PM   #8
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I have a round tooth T-belt in the bedroom closet, want the #'s off of it?
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:58 AM   #9
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Ok I have been through this with my 1.6/1.3 hybrid motor build.

Biggest problem you are going to have is that the 1.6 16V crank timing belt gear is a 5 hole as compared to the 1.3 and 1.6 8V that is a 4 hole. This means that your crank fan belt pulley will not go on there.

Yes there are two different styles. The timing belts in the 1.3 and 1.6 8V's are shallow and more square like you pictured And teh 16V 1.6's are deeper and more rounded. They will destroy themselves prematurely if ran on the wrong pulleys.

If you decide to use it anyway, the you have to switch everything over to the rib belt and change all your accesory belt pulleys to the rib style. Or buy a new v/rib pully from trail tough or spidertrax.

Basiclly, it would be cheaper to just buy or find a 1.3 crank timing gear to replace your cracked one.
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Old 07-08-2008, 09:31 AM   #10
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I have the stock 1.3 cam and crank pulleys laying around on a junk motor... PM me and they can be yours.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:36 PM   #11
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No you obiviously cant mix match the 8v and the 16v pulley since the 8v's are flat bottom toothed and the 16v's are round toothed.

I see that your bottom one is chipped. You get get a brand new one here for $18 new.

http://www.store.partsdinosaur.com/product1600.html

Great guy to deal with. Bought all my parts to rebuild my 16v with him and he even found parts I needed that he didnt have listed.

He also has the timing belt for $11.

You might ask him if he can get the cam timing pulley.


Yes the 16v is a taller engine.
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Old 07-08-2008, 07:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catzuk View Post
Biggest problem you are going to have is that the 1.6 16V crank timing belt gear is a 5 hole as compared to the 1.3 and 1.6 8V that is a 4 hole.
My 8v has a 5hole crank pulley
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Old 07-08-2008, 08:30 PM   #13
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Now if you wanna use a serpentine belt for the alt/fan pulleys than you can put the 1.6 8v timing bottom pulley so you'll have 5 bolt holes for the crank pulley. Then switch out the water/alt pulleys.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:44 PM   #14
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Rangerscott is right in line with what I was looking at. Just to clarify, I was not proposing mixing the 16v and 8v gears. I would use the full set either the 16v gears both cam and crank, or the 8v gears cam and crank. Like I mentioned, I do have a full powersteering setup from the kick. So some how I would need to get a dual pully on the crank. That has the 5 bolts. So that was the real motivation. Otherwise I'll need to aquire a differnet 4 bolt gear for the power steering.

If I ended up with the 16v gears, I would need to get a shorter round tooth belt. As has been pointed out the 16v is taller. The other fun part... I would end up either putting the altenator from the 16v or changing the alt pulley, then I'd have to use a different water pump pulley also... Aren't these toys fun .

BTW, shorty is helping me out. Thanks dude!!! and thanks for the hint rangerscott on the parts dinosaur. He actually has the 89 round tooth belt for $19. I'm tempted to try it for fun.
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